Dominion Agitprop Claptrap: LinkedIn.com Discussion Digest - "Who is Killing Christianity?" 2.22.10 – 2.25.10. Based on PlanetShifter.com Event Circle Interview with Bron Taylor, author of Dark Green Religion

Dominion Agitprop Claptrap. LinkedIn.com Discussion Digest - "Who is Killing Christianity?" 2.22.10 – 2.25.10. Based on PlanetShifter.com Event Circle Interview with Bron Taylor, author of Dark Green Religion - in the Event Circle - by Willi Paul.

Being related to the Blackfoot Native Americans I have experienced this idea. Earth Day is April 22 and for 2010 we get to celebrate the 40th anniversary, but the wisdom goes back long before that date. Our rush on the Freeway and the
quick cuts on the movie and TV screen does not permit long times to consider the Earth and long seasons or cycles. Many are today working with greater understanding and gaining more knowledge today, so there is hope.

I noticed something. You seem to like "leading questions". Take the title of this section that you ask as a leading question; "Who is killing Christianity?" I saw in the article this question and again it appears as a Leading Question. "Has Christianity created a “torn psyche” in its followers has many struggle with the values in ecology vs. the historic guidance and principles in Abrahamism? " Bron Taylor replies......

"I’m not entirely sure what you mean by a “torn psyche” but it has certainly been difficult and wrenching for many Christians to come to terms with the ascendant ecological/evolutionary worldview." I would question the Ecological aspect but the evolutionary aspect could be debated. As for me I think we may be onto a Unified Field Theory. Understand that the Yin and Yang of Taoism suggests Form and Formless. Or Matter and Energy a duality in a single Tao. Because of Oneness the rock and water as well as sky is sacred and we need to respect Gods Creation. How did he do that? What tools are in his Toolbox? For he that can say Be and it will Be. For me your "Leading Question" about Blackfoot Mythologies, is almost an insult. Are you attempting to generate mythologies? Your article has this, "Willi's Green Box:" New green stories and myth generator." Are you the Myth Generator?

Bron Taylor is correct that Observation is important that is why I am in discussion about Satellite Monitoring and Evaluation for the REDD+ activity in Africa and Nepal that will uplift the poor and save the Earth. Soil, Water and Sky healing and save you some money at the pump on transportation fuel. I worked with the Five Treaty Tribes of the Pacific Northwest and one of their Scientist Dr. Tom Backman on uplinking data to a Satellite (NOAA's GEOS). Too bad those five did not include the Blackfoot because they were short on Myths. That is just my own Christian observation.
Posted by Sidney Clouston

What do your comments have to do with Christianity or Christ anyway? God put us here to tend and keep His creation yes but we are to rule over it not be subservient to it.
Posted by John Sanders

Christianity is alive and well, through it has been renamed for the masses as "spiritualism." People are reluctant to outwardly discuss their faith, because they are reluctant to be judged in the court of public opinion and face a barrage of accusations like: protectors of child molesters, suicide cultists, gun toting extremists, nuts, crazies, lesbian and gay haters or whatever misguided or mal-informed notion that is currently popular. Christians have been accused of: being the cause of every conflict that exists, brainwashing others and many other preposterous claims. Gone are the scripture spouting street corner evangelists, enter the missionaries that work in the background; people helping people and loving their neighbor and their enemies. You won't hear about them because they work anonymously and out of the spotlight, they expect no reward nor recognition. I am aware of more Christians now than when we were a supposed Christian society. I have been called misguided, dangerous, and stupid by others because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and choose to live a life of discipleship. To all of the Christian haters that may read this, I have only one thing to say "Jesus loves you and so do I."

Dark green religion is not new, a Christian would call it stewardship of the planet.
Posted by Robert Miller

I can't answer that question, but I do believe that Christ himself would be very much and always has been an advocate for peace, justice and stewardship for God's creation. I recommend a book "Saving Paradise" by Brock and Parker.
Here's what the book jacket says:

" Saving Paradise: How Christianity Traded Love of This World for Crucifixion and Empire restores the idea of Paradise to its rightful place at the center of Christian thought. Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker offer a fascinating new lens on the history of Christianity, from its first centuries to the present day, asking how its early vision of beauty evolved into a vision of torture, and what changes in society and theology marked that evolution."
Posted by Jim Van Camp

If you can kill it, then it isn't Christ.

Am I right in my understanding that you're speaking of the "Christianity" that is more than religious than spiritual? Then it has nothing to do with what Jesus was trying to tell us.
Posted by Apryl Anderson

Are we supposed to be eating rocks?
Posted by Brian Nail

We're communicating!

I'm speaking of Christ as the living example of someone who refused to turn from faith for religion. He was thoroughly Spiritual.

"They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen." Romans 1:25 (New Living Translation)

Don't understand where the discussion title comes from though; "Who is killing Christianity." But this verse puts New Age and Green religion in perspective.

Christianity as a religion is often mislabeled or misunderstood. Many who "claim" to be Christians will be shocked when they stand before God one day, and Jesus says "depart from me-I never knew you". True Christianity is being Christ-like. It's NOT religion. True Christianity is all about GRACE (God's Riches At Christ's Expense". Christianity is the only "religion" that you don't have to DO anything but ACCEPT God's gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ. All other religions make you earn their claim to eternal life or whatever. You can't earn your way into Heaven.

Willi, I can appreciate trying to save the earth. But man is just not big enough. I'm all for taking care of God's creation, and we certainly have messed things up. There's no mandate on eternal life and saving the planet. Trying to save the earth is a noble cause, but it's just works, and making people feel good about themselves. There will be a new heaven and a new earth one day...

Revelation 21:1 (New International Version)

The New Jerusalem
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

Sorry Willi...

Well, I would just ask have you honestly sought God, the Creator of this earth and universe. I would recommend looking at Lee Strobel's "The Case For Christ". He was an atheist who sought out to disprove Jesus Christ, and ended up believing.

Thanks Duncan, great comments (He also ate fish!)
Steven; as a Christian I don't HAVE to obey God's Word; I WANT to... We have freedom to do whatever we want, choosing life and it's abundancy in God's Word, or disobedience and self-will and trouble. I have peace in my life, knowing without a shadow of doubt where I'll be spending eternity. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is like nothing else on earth.
Posted by Neil Knudsen

I would never argue that other religious concepts don't bring benefits to followers. Each has its "pay off" for followers.

However I would second Neil's idea that Christianity is a much different experience than it often appears to be from the outside looking in. The "conversion" process is well named; the experience of making Christ the Lord of one’s life transforms the viewpoint and frees the soul. Christians no longer feel bound by rules, but by love and the pleasant need to do the good and right thing. Jesus truly sets the captive free, and brings a second chance to those who are otherwise facing hopeless situations.

Nothing can stir up trouble like a religious conversation. But a couple of points that hopefully will be as neutral as possible.

1) As a Jew, Jesus would have eaten lamb during the Passover celebration.

2) Although the common use of "BC" is "Before Christ," it is true only in terms of his birth. John wrote that "In the beginning was the Word (i.e., the Messiah/Christ)..." Therefore, as far as those Christians who believe this passage are concerned, Jesus has always been and always will be.

I don't quite know where the notion that Christians promote a "war on the planet" comes from since one of the basic tenants of both Jewish and Christian faiths is the idea of being a good steward of the land we are given to take care of. Mosaic law even dictates that land be allowed to grow wild ever seven years.

Of course I suppose there's a lot of wiggle room in the notion of "and other faiths" which encompasses everything else mankind might believe or have believed in, doesn't it? I guess if you want to lump Christians in with everyone else, that works :o) But it would be akin to my saying, "Well ecologists and the Stalinists killed millions of innocent people in Siberia." It is true, yet so misleading for anyone that takes it at face value.

I also always find it odd when people single out Christians and blame them above and beyond all others for the ills of humankind. Perhaps there's actually a fear of Christianity in all this? "Methinks she doth protest too much."

That said, anyone who has visited China on a "clear day" knows that its air quality is quite far behind that of so-called Christian nations. Likewise there are huge, barren poisonous areas throughout the nation. Is anyone suggesting that China is a Christian nation?

Likewise, if one were to suggest that the US is a Christian nation (and I wouldn't suggest this, nor do I wish to be an apologist for the US, but let's just say), there are actually now more trees than when the first Christians set foot on the continent; is this poor conservation or a good thing?

Would it have happened if the US were comprised only of greedy capitalists? Or socialists? Would it have happened without Christians on the land? Who knows. But to suggest that Christians are responsible for the worst actions of the past is off the mark.

Conversely, we can look at nations that have stripped their land of forests. Most don't claim to be Christian. Where do you put those into this mix? Can you still blame Christians for these acts or do you just ignore them because they don't fit into the pattern you are suggesting?

I would never contend that an entire nation can truly be Christian. But likewise I think it would be wrong to suggest that those Christians who believe in being good stewards of what they are given are somehow the greatest polluters and the most wasteful of all of mankind. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle ground.

And now... I am going to bow out of these conversations because I can see they are headed for flame wars, in the true spirit of Macs vs. PCs, capitalism vs. socialism, and all those other emotionally spirited debates that lead to nowhere.
Posted by Duncan Long

ooh, this is getting interesting!

I don't follow you, Brian, about Jesus being veg--although I remember reading something to that effect in the 70s. I don't eat pork either, but I'm not kosher. (Unnecessary side note.)

That's an interesting interview, Willi. Seriously, would America change significantly if we were religious in our devotion to our planet? As a Christ-follower, I'm more interested in becoming like Him than fitting in with the church. He was a healer…how can I fix what's so badly broken?

I'm off for a drink now…on the rocks ;0+

oo la, I know when to show up, don't I? I think we owe ourselves a long French dinner.

Anyway, I'm throwing out the case for motivation: all of us are out for #1, no matter who we think that is.

The next question is: are you internally or externally motivated? Fine, I respect you, please respect me as you respect yourself--assuming that you respect yourself. (Sadly, many do not. They are likely to be externally motivated, and consequently passive-aggressive tyrants.)

Okay then, how do we encourage mutual respect? That's entirely what Christ was doing through His actions, and demanding from those who wanted Him dead. He was constantly challenging people, "do you WANT to be healed? Then get up and walk."

I'm pretty much frustrated with too many 'victims' who complain about pollution, religion, politics…and aren't willing to get up and dance. Where's the love?

Now it's time for my carrot-nut loaf. Bon appetite to those who indulge.
Posted by Apryl Anderson

"Christianity is the only "religion" that you don't have to DO anything but ACCEPT " ha
doesn't have you do anything but tells you what to do all the time ….

I just finished reading a book about "native" people’s stories of nature. Almost all native peoples all over the world, say that we humans have a duty to protect the earth, our mother.
The gift we were given was intelligence. It is no greater a gift than a whales song, a bats wings, a jaguars claws or elephants trunk. We are animals the same as they are. And our gift brings the responsibility to protect mother earth. All the native peoples have myths about previous incarnations of man who failed in that duty and were wiped out as punishment. Almost all those punishments took the form of floods. (Noah?) And the remaining peoples were again given the charge of protecting the planet, with the knowledge that there will be consequences if we fail again. All the native people say we are very close to failure. And they all blame the white man for turning away from nature and toward "civilization".

I have no beef with "Christ" In whatever form it comes in. (Christ, noun. Latin enlightened person; Grand teacher)

My beef is with the church that indeed does tell us what to do, what not to do, how to live and even what to think.

When "Christians" stepped onto this continent there were 30 million native Americans. that number was quickly reduced to near zero. The population now stands at around 3 million. And let us not forget entire cultures that were wiped out in central and south America. Genocide in the name of Christ.

Bison, wolves, large cats, manatee, birds of prey, and hundreds of other species that were once plentiful (because the natives managed the lands correctly) are near extinction. They would probably be extinct already if there hadn't been a shift toward nature spirituality in the early 70's. We began moving away from the churches idea of "care taker" at that time. We are continuing that trend in hopes of saving the world, not just our souls.

The problem that Christianity has with nature is that they think they are better than it. (created in God’s image, Dominion of the beasts of the world) Those words are in your book. You don't want to live with nature you want to force it into a box so it can be bought and sold and prioritized.

And a lot of the "Christians" I have known didn't give 2 cents what happens here because "my reward is in heaven". The arrogance. This world doesn’t belong to "Christians". It belongs to our descendants. We are only watching over it until they get here. "Christians seem to be looking forward to the end of the world because they have been told they will live forever after everything else is dead. HOW DARE YOU! You want to know who’s killing Christianity? The church is killing Christianity. They are killing themselves with their own hubris. I say good riddens. Get rid of them before they cause any more problems.
Posted by Steven Caldwell

If a fight ensues then it will not be over the value and wonderful things of the universe, because the Christian believes that all things were made by God and that he takes pleasure in his creation. The difference will come in that God gave man dominion (and responsibility to care for his creation) while remembering and worshiping the creator- not just his creation. A Christian sees Gods hand in all around him and falls down to worship him- not the nature itself. A Christian would see DGR as doomed to fail as a false religion.

No need to attack Willi- I fully understands that resources are limited and this is getting more dire. This is the very reason I got out of the fossil fuel business 5 years ago- we need a new direction. We just disagree what the point is and some core values. And yes- there will be wars and rumors of wars in the near future over these resources among other things. As far as God creating the world- I will let him prove that. I am a science nut and have looked at both sides and chose my position- you chose yours. So be it.
Posted by Phil Younger

Sounds like "Pandora" in the Avatar movie.
Posted by Raul Ramos

Steven, I'm not part of the Catholic church; which is where I think your beef is. And I would concur with that opinion. I do not like or agree with organized religion. That's why I said many who "claim" to be Christian will be disappointed when Jesus says on judgment day; depart from me, I never knew you. That ties in with your point of what so-called Christians have done in the course of history, in the name of Christ (Crusades, exploration, genocides, etc.) Very unfortunate...

I am a follower of the Bible. It's teachings are real and a help. We are created in God’s image; animals were not. We were given dominion over the animals (book of Genesis). Man was originally charged with taking care of the earth and everything in it. However when there is abuse, those will be judged. I love nature and animals; in part because I see God in His creation. But I don't worship the creation. So I for one do not think I am better than the animals in the earth. But man was given a spirit, animals were not as far as I know... Man was created for fellowship with God.

I for one DO care what happens here and now on earth. True, my reward IS in heaven, that's why what I do here bears extreme significance. I will be judged by how I spent my time, how I took care of things (environment if you will), how I treated others "Love your neighbor as yourself". But the bottom line is, God will ask What did you do with My Son-Jesus Christ? Did you accept my gift of grace and forgiveness through His sacrifice? That's the only way for entrance into Heaven. Jesus said "I AM the way the truth and the life, no one can come to the Father except through me." Now either Jesus was who He said He was, or He was the greatest deceiver ever. But was there anyone else who fulfilled over 300 prophecies about himself? No. Are His bones in the tomb he was placed? No. (Over 500 recorded instances I believe of seeing Jesus alive after His death.) Would all the apostles, disciples, martyrs over the course of history die for a lie? I don't think so. So there must be something to this Christianity. Why is time divided by His birth? Why is His birth the most celebrated event in history? or His resurrection for that matter? And why is Christianity so persecuted? Because there is Good, and evil in this world, and the devil does not want you to see the truth.

So I would say God's blessings on you. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
John 3:16-21

Read the Gospel of John as a starting point, and see if you feel any different.
Posted by Neil Knudsen

Awhile ago there was an article, Running Dry, by Jacques Leslie in Harper's.
LINK http://www.harpers.org/archive/2000/07/0066176

Interesting reading. I see this whole Water-Energy-Food connection as the critical issue, yet no one has the political will to address it NOW. Sure I would like to view this with optimism and promising potential for meaningful career pursuits, but how to overcome the know-nothings and the do-nothings we are saddled with?
Posted by Jim Van Camp

Steven, you don't understand. I feel sorry for you. I suggest you take some time to get to know a true Christian in your area. I belong to a fairly decent sized church (200 +/-) and I can't think of anyone there who "gives 2 cents what happens here because "my reward is in heaven"." I'm not sure where you're getting your info about Christianity, or Christians, but you are seriously mislead. This thread has become off topic.
Posted by Vic Moss

Ok. Here is my 2 cents. Jesus was not Christian, he was Jewish. Christianity came after heavy marketing and added advertising and other productions for the starved masses.

For about 300 years the so called Christians sort of keep things pure with small gathering in the dark or else they would be burned, etc. Keeping traditions and reading from many different books about Christ.

So it came to pass that a roman emperor, Constantine, being a smart fox of a leader saw the potential manipulating power of this budding movement/religion and took upon himself to make it the official, emperor sanctioned, religion.

Soon after, he gathered all important bishops of Christianity to sort out the many stories about Christ that were circulating.

Well guess what happened? The now greedy power hungry and rich fathers of the church began the fine work of putting together the definitive Word of God and decided what was in and what was out and of course with a heavy dose of editing, so the impressionable masses would understand the message of Christ.

Many versions and translations, not to mention, mistakes made by tired or bored or ignorant scriber monks later, we have in our hands the definite word of God.

Divine guidance? The hand of God? The Bible is without fail, like the Pope?

What killed Christianity? with all due respect...Christians!

Instead of living the message they live the messenger.

It is not about grace it is about works.

Who has the courage to be naked? to abandon all concepts and dogma and follow the message of love Jesus left. Are you afraid of letting go and not being saved?

Let me ask you. What father would let ANY of his children burn in hell, for all eternity while others live in a lazy heavenly world not doing much?

Surely not my God! He is perfection and love, Surely not my Jesus, he does not ask me to trade salvation.

God waits patiently for us to get it and be brothers and sisters to other humans, animals, plants and the planet.

I'm naked! What about you? It starts with me. People are funny. Why Commits indeed. Maybe because religion plays such a big part in everyday life. No matter what's your persuasion the system is based on these beliefs. Maybe that is why we are in such a big mess. Salvation is candy! Bread and circus all over again.
Posted by Sergio Miller

Hello again Willi Paul. I was wondering, by the title of this discussion, why it was under a green group heading. (I'm not against discussing this subject in the least, but wondered at the applicability.) Now I see that it's totally appropriate. "Thumbing" through Bron Taylor's website, I came across the description of a new human pathology: "No Garden to Get Back to: Understanding Post-Avatar Ecological Depressive Disorder." Ryan Croker has chosen a brilliant title and I look forward to reading the rest of his comments. Thank you again for your wisdom and willingness to post.
Posted by Martha Matsuda

What are YOU writing? Besides Dominion agitprop claptrap?
Posted by Peter Rogan<’strong>

Truly. Why it is so many non-churches can actually understand the teachings of The Great Teacher and so many church goers can only quote the book as "proof".

That book was written by a marketing company. The single largest self serving company on the planet.

If you really want to know the ways of Jesus, I suggest you go help your neighbor because you can, spend week fishing in the woods, or simply stare up at the stars until sun rise. I have done all these. All these Jesus did also.
Salvation does not lie in Grace. It lies in Compassion, understanding, and peace. Jesus was NEVER meant to be the one and only. We can all achieve his level if we quit expecting someone else to do it for us. We are ALL completely capable of saving ourselves. But we have to think for ourselves to do it and that's what the church doesn't want. So to keep you all in the pews and that tithe money rolling in, they lied to you and said there is only one way. They continue to deceive the people to this day.

I used to work with a guy who was a preacher on the weekend and a carpenter on weekdays like I was at the time. We once had to change out a dormer box on a building. There was a bird’s nest under the edge with 5 eggs in it. He raked it out and let it fall to the sidewalk the eggs broke open killing the half formed chicks inside. I said "Why did you do that? We could have moved the nest." His answer was "If they wanted to live they shouldn't have been birds" That was a Preacher. That's the kind of "Christians" I have met in my life. Are they all like that? Probably not. But the church is responsible for current discriminations against gays, and Muslims and 50 years ago against blacks, and Irish, and I could go on. The point being is that Jesus was trying to teach LOVE. Just like in the late 60's and like in Pagan Drumming Circles, and in all kinds of places that the church doesn't approve of.

So you see I accept Jesus and his sacrifice. But I also understand that the teachings were the truly important part. If we can be like that we can heaven on earth. That is what the church has forgotten or simply thrown away because it didn't profit them.

Vic seems to understand.

My story of the bird assassin is not about the fact that he would do something like that but the fact that he was a preacher. He was teaching that sort of callousness to people who were looking to find Christ. My story was meant to show just how many people are being mis-lead because they don't understand that we are SUPPOSED to seek our own paths.

We can save ourselves. BUT it is up to US. No one can do it for you. Peace
Posted by Steven Caldwell

Re: "The now greedy power hungry and rich fathers of the church began the fine work of putting together the definitive Word of God..." etc.

This was widely believed in the previous two centuries but was disproved several decades ago.

One of the nice things about the age we live in is that today's archeology and historic researching offer more and more evidence that Jesus walked the Earth as a historic figure (via the writings of Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus -- who, along with Phlegon, wrote about the land growing dark when Jesus was crucified, Mara Bar-Serapion, and --of course-- Josephus).

What I find interesting about all these historians/writers from the first century AD is that even though they weren't Christians as such, they not only never disputed that Jesus existed, some even went on to say that he did miracles and, in the case of Josephus, that Jesus rose from the dead. This is a rather startling thing to find in historic texts and suggests to me that these events must be based in fact.

Since today there's also more documentation that supports the historic existence of Jesus than there is for many historic figures, to argue that Jesus didn't exist and/or didn't do many of the things these historians document would then dictate throwing out most of what is accepted as "historic fact" fact today since most ancient figures and events are less documented than is Jesus.

You can believe as you wish, but for me to be intellectually honest, I can only dismiss the Biblical Jesus for lack of documentation if I'm willing to also maintain that most philosophers and historic figures (whose existence is less documented) are fictional. If I accept that, say, Plato existed, then I must also accept Jesus as a historic figure as well and what was written about him in the Bible. To do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest. If I reject the historic fact of Jesus, then I must do the same with the vast majority of other ancient historic figures.

As for when the Gospels were written, fragments of each have been found in 1st Century Egyptian artifacts that date back to the first century, suggesting that they were in fact written by the authors they are ascribed to and haven't changed much since then (the "books" not put into the current cannon we call the New Testament were of doubtful authorship and thus left out for a reason, not simply because church fathers were biased).

Carbon dating these portions of the Gospels has shown when the books were written: Matthew AD 70-80, Mark between AD 50-65, Luke around AD 60 and John between AD 80 and 100). This has pretty well nailed down the fact that the Gospels as we have them are as they were written, and written very close to the time that Jesus actually walked the planet and written by those who knew him (and thus lays to rest the theological notion from the late 1800s that the Gospels were written hundreds of years after the fact and therefore not to be taken as -- excuse the pun-- gospel).

Sadly there are still those who claim the Gospels were written long after Jesus lived – but obviously this is due either to ignorance of science of outright lying.

Bottom line: The Gospels are actual historic documents written in the period they report on.

Would God condemn people to Hell? Not at all. He gave his son Jesus so people could avoid that end. He paid the price.

Free will allows people to choose to go to Hell, but let’s not blame God when people exercise their free choice and ignore the death of a Savior who loved mankind enough to sacrifice himself. People can choose to live or they can choose Hell - but it is infantile to blame God for the decisions people make on their own. If people choose to reject salvation, that is a choice they make, not one God makes for them.
Posted by Duncan Long

Short stories, a couple novels, economic analysis, some pointed refutations of completely silly attacks on democracy and the scientific method in general, and climate change and evolution in particular. What are YOU writing? Besides Dominion agitprop claptrap?
Posted by Peter Rogan

As I mentioned Steven, I feel sorry for you. I really, honestly do. I wished I lived near you so we could go out and have a coffee (or beer), and we could talk. Nothing that myself, Duncan, or Neal say in this forum will change your mind, nor is this the forum for such discussions. Both Duncan and Neal are much better writers than I, and what they say is what I feel, especially Duncan's last comments. It is my true feeling Steven, that the majority of "Christians" you have met probably aren't Christ Christians. As Duncan mentioned, anecdotal evidence can prove (& disprove) any argument. This is why it isn't allowed in most serious debates and discussions (politics aside).

It also intrigues me that Willi titled this discussion "Who Is Killing Christianity". That is never brought up in the article. The differences between Christianity and DGR are hardly mentioned, and never accused of killing anything. It is my suspicion that Willi was looking for something just like this to happen to this thread. I wonder if Willi has a hidden agenda here. It was certainly interesting to start this in the CA Group.

Unless something really strikes me as needing my thoughts opined, I think I will just follow this thread now, and get back to CA stuff.

Its been a fun one to watch!

And Steven, if you're ever in Denver, please do contact me (I'm serious!). I'd love to introduce you to some Christians who help neighbors, spend a week in the woods, and watch the stars until morning. This they've done because Jesus did, and commands us to do likewise. The ultimate goal of True Christians is to become as Christ-like as possible until we are called home. Christ would not have swept away the nest, but he more that likely would have replaced the dormer box. After all, he was a carpenter.

~V~
http://www.mossphotography.biz
Posted by Vic Moss

there used to be a reason I followed this 'Communication Arts' group and allowed the discussions to be forwarded to my e-mail. dull and decaying road of 2010? ... 2 months into it? Good job Willi Paul... thanks for trying to save me from it...good luck with promoting your thing.

Peace Out
Posted by Thomas Tonkin

wow, I thought I heard explosions during the night.

This discussion is completely appropriate for the CA forum. You wanted to create a provocative headline, Willi, and it worked.

Equally effective would be: How I made my first mission in Dark Green Religion, or Better sex through DGR. These are always hot topics.

But if you want to establish your readers' trust, you don't want to be misleading. Fool me once, etc. Choose a spiteful headline, and you're promoting a spiteful response.

Aren't you preaching method of life & growth in your article? Then communicate it!

I've got a lot of creating to do today, so I'm unfollowing this discussion. It's been fun. Grace & peace to all of you,
Posted by Apryl Anderson

Faith like Neil's has not lead us to ruin, we lead ourselves to ruin. We have all neglected to take care of Earth, each of us still do things we know is harming the planet, but we continue as it is our way of life and change is hard. It is difficult to walk the walk, but easy to talk the talk. It will never be a planet wide effort to preserve our planet, too many folks simply don't care.
Posted by Vivian Mosley

I skimmed through the above and I agree with most all of it. Yes GOD created everything. Yes Jesus is GOD. Yes because GOD created everything, HE is in everything. Yes we should have kinship and brotherly love respect/protect nature and all living things, systems they are a part of and upon which they depend( i.e. the unborn). All humans understand and to some degree believe this to be true. That is why people are able to make so much money and gain political power by selling "Save the Planet/Global Warming" or whatever. And that is why abortion is such a sensitive subject.

Christianity is a very personal thing. Religions are meant to bring individuals closer to each other and to GOD. Unfortunately Man spends his time using religions to draw differences and it takes us farther from GOD. Also many times individuals have used religions for their own purposes. Good Luck and GOD Bless
Posted by Karl Freund

Christianity cannot be killed.
Joe Flood

I like Karl's point of view, but I respect what you believe. " Money is the root to all evil" ..ummmm , yes.. but the power it brings is addicting. It was and always will be a deterrent. Too bad.
Posted by cile bailey

Yes, that is likely true. But it is equally obvious that is must evolve.
Or we will perish.
Willi Paul

That would depend on what part of Christianity that you fell must evolve.
Joe Flood