Interview with Divina Klein and Douglas Mackar of La Forza by Willi Paul:

Please listen to a "Dream within a Dream":
https://www.planetshifter.com/myth/591

1. Robyn Hitchcock told me that music is a form of alchemy – perhaps an invisible attempt to alter people's moods. Your reactions?

DIVINA:
Every musical event is a very specific frequency, in other words a unique vibration of consciousness & energy that will interact with every individual depending on where they are at and what their agenda is. If an individual wants to be uplifted, to dance, to move, they can use music to support that. If they want to experience aggression, adrenaline, head banging, they can use music to support that. If an individual chooses to indulge in pitiful emotions, they can use music to support that, there is specific music out there just for that. Alchemy, however, is about true change and transformation, so I like to use music to support my practices of raising my kundalini and changing my brain chemistry.

DOUGLAS: To me, alchemy is the process of conscious transformation. An alchemist is not one to change something about someone else, but to transform themselves. There are many layers to the symbolism of alchemy, but the foundation, I believe, is self-transformation. Inner change is reflected in the world around us. As far as altering someone's mood goes, I would hope that our music could go beyond that. A mood is simply an emotion, which is a chemical process in the body. I would rather our music inspire people beyond emotion, beyond chemical experiences, to a place where spirit truly dwells.

2. Hero. Define yours? Are you a hero?

DIVINA:
To me a hero is somebody that conquers fear and as a result transcends commonly accepted limitations. A hero restores and promotes hope and often helps generations to integrate loftier concepts and desired ideals.

I do have a hero in me, and I am working on being one in every aspect of my life / of myself. I am conquering myself, so yes, I am my hero.

DOUGLAS:
Divina is my hero. She speaks her truth, and follows her dreams. She challenges herself to be the best she can be. She takes responsibility for her thoughts, actions and words, and will admit when she could have done or said something differently. She doesn't hide from herself or anyone else. She helps me to be a better man. She traveled from her home country to another continent with confidence and grace, learning the language and creating her own business. Every moment with her is an inspiration, and for that and many more reasons, Divina is my hero.

Am I a hero?

Last year, I saved a woman's life at an antique store. I opened her airway and allowed her to breathe. Had I left her as she was, she would have died. I went out of my way to train to know what to do. That's always been important to me, to be prepared to act in any given situation. To know what to do. That is a clear example of "knowledge is power". I've been a Wilderness First Responder, trained for Search & Rescue. That day, I walked away nameless and unthanked. I think that's a pretty classic use of the word hero that gets overlooked. I've helped a lot of animals throughout my life. In that sense, I've been a hero, but I don't think that makes me a hero now. I'm definitely prepared to be a hero again. That's as simple as being prepared to act selflessly for another, or knowing CPR.


3. What are the sounds from pre-history? Do you sample Nature? The City?

DIVINA:
Part of my spiritual work is about contemplating the Void, one great nothing materially, yet all things potentially. It is the concept of all frequency originating in a state where there is no time, distance or space, therefore no frequency, all sound born from all silence. In my creative processes I reconnect with that source. We love to sample Nature, because our Spirits love it, but we don't sample the City.

DOUGLAS:
Our first album begins with the sound of the wind. It ends with the sound of rain. I think it's important to remind people in subtle ways that music is always surrounding them. The sound of the city can be that music as well. We live in the country, purposely. Silence is the most beautiful music.

As far as history, or pre-history, I don't relate to that. I don't give power to time. From my experience there is only the now. What we think of as the past in the sense of memory is a chemical reaction in our brain. All time is available to us in the now. Time as a philosophy is something that's great to explore, but the more we get caught up in time as reality, the farther we are from truly living in the now. I know it can be taken as a cliché, but it's not. If you really understood, as many mystics and teachers have, what living in the now really means, you would not think of it as a cliché, but as a doorway to true liberation.

4. Is the era of sustainability a form of religion? The end of a world? What's next?

DIVINA:
I don't think at all that the endeavor to create sustainability and a life that is more harmonious with nature has anything to do with religion whatsoever, on the contrary. While most religion is so self-centered on the human relationship with the divine and does not provide practical solutions for the environmental problems that are right in front of us, the era of sustainability has brought forth strategies to restore and support the natural world. I am sure the future is going to be about a much different way of living, back to the roots, back to nature, back to self-sufficiency, so in that sense it is going to be the end of a world.

DOUGLAS:
I don't think this is an era of sustainability at all. In an ecological sense, the Native Americans lived a life of sustainability. Generations providing for themselves, that's an era of sustainability. People fool themselves into believing they are living a sustainable life. I see it more as an era of realization that a sustainable life is necessary. I think "the end of the world" is just a metaphor for the end of a limited mind state. If you live in a box, and all you know is the world in that box, then of course you'd think it would be the end of the world if it was "prophesized" that the box was going to be removed, when in reality, a whole world of possibilities is suddenly emerging around you. The metaphor of the end of the world is sound, but it's too easy to misinterpret. To paraphrase Chief Seattle, There is no death, just a changing of worlds. That can relate to the world around us as well as our physical body. I love change. I'm a student of change. What's next is whatever we create. We are all creators of our own reality. As a collective of conscious individuals we have more power than we even imagine. Now we must not only imagine, but recognize that power and use it to create the world we've always dreamed of. Quiet the mind. Listen to nature. Live the dream. It's so simple that it's easy to overlook, to try too hard. What's next is mastery of the self. What's next is change.

5. What effects does commercial music and television have on our well-being?

DIVINA:
None. I don't listen to commercial music, and I don't watch television because they don't support my progressive nature, they are a vexation to my spirit.

DOUGLAS:
Whatever effect we allow it to have. Whatever attitude we present. The only power anything outside of our own mind has is the power that we give it within our own mind. That's where we get the phrase "Take the power back." Personally, I haven't watched a television in over 15 years, and I don't listen to commercial radio. The only popular modern band that I relate to is Tool.


6. What are some of the creative or spiritual initiations that you have went thru? Still working on?

DIVINA:
My initiations have been about experiencing the power of mind over matter or shall we say mind AS matter by holding my focus on a particular outcome and then experiencing the results as physical reality. Telepathy, remote viewing, seeing through playing cards, defying gravity through increasing the frequency of my electromagnetic field.

DOUGLAS:
Every moment is an initiation. I'm no philosopher, I'm a mystic. I can tell you that even the simplest moments can offer a revelation. How do you explain a transcendent moment in nature. Explaining your spiritual journey, your initiations, is like trying to explain to someone else a dream you had. You can picture it perfectly, how it felt, what it looked like, every detail, but when you try to explain it to someone else, it gets lost so quickly. I'm having de ja vu as I write this. The key to me is to never think you've arrived at truth, but to be truth forever discovering itself.


7. What is Tao? How does your music work with the mind – body - spirit triad?

DIVINA:
I would relate the term Tao to Zero Point energy, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient consciousness and energy that is potentially accessible to anybody if they know how to tap and use it.

Our music has many repetitious elements, which produces trance-inducing effects. The trance is a state that one can use to change existing programs and download new ones from the Subconscious Mind. You can use our music to hypnotize yourself into a greater reality, change your body, change your DNA, change your personality. And your Spirit will rejoice in your changes.

DOUGLAS:
The Tao is simply, "the way." In the Jedi tradition it is "the Force". It's important to me to not get caught up in analyzing mystic concepts, and instead, experiencing their truth for myself. From a place of truth, or by attaining the Tao, one is able to know without having to prove that they know. That's where the character of the "Taoist fool" comes from. Our music only works with the mind/body/spirit triad if the listener is open to that experience. Certainly the creation of the music is a process that harmonizes this triad. Thoughts and actions carry out the will of the spirit. Once the music is released, though, it is up to the listener to create their own experience of it.

8. Many are talking about a major collapse in the world economy and a catastrophic period of anger and hunger. Do you see this near-term scenario? In not, what is your perception of the next 2-5 years on the planet?

DIVINA:
Some call it "The Last Waltz of the Tyrants", and I believe that there is multiple parallel realities, and that we personally choose more or less consciously which one we are to experience. I wish to see the existing system of suppression and abuse to collapse and a new world to come forth. Also Mother Nature needs a lot of cleansing, and yes, I believe that that involves some destruction, how much, I don't know. However, if you are aligned with nature, it will preserve you.

DOUGLAS:
If enough people envision a major collapse, catastrophes, anger, and hunger, then of course it must come to pass. I think a lot of people want that, because their view of reality is that something must be torn down in order to build something new; that destruction must come before creation. That mind set can be seen in healing one's own body. The "western" idea of removing organs that do not function properly is counter to traditional Chinese medicine that shows clearly that the effects of the disease in that organ will simply move on to the next organ in the pentagram of the elements. Collapse and destruction are not necessary, just as removing the failed organ is not necessary. To truly heal, either a body or a society, one must enter a mind state of absolute health. The cells in your body are controlled by your mind. They respond appropriately to your thoughts. Nothing happens to you, only through you.

Regardless of the events that happen throughout the world, I will continue to transform myself into the unlimited being that I have always been. When I have mastered myself, then the whole world will be a reflection of my sweetest dreams. What I see in the next 2-5 years is a worldwide restructuring of the perception of time, a major collapse of fear, and a catastrophic period of angry and hungry people overcoming their limited personalities to be one with their unlimited god-selves.


9. How are you Shamans?

DIVINA:
By working on consciously using different parts of our brains that allow us to be psychic and powerful, and by working on accepting other dimensions and the invisible to be as real as the world we can perceive through our five senses.

DOUGLAS:
The most basic aspect of how we are Shamans is the experience of the trance state.
All creation occurs in a trance state. In trance, your old attitudes can't disrupt creation and evolution. It's only when you release from that trance state that you fall back into your old mind state. It's always a temptation to go back to the familiar. True change- transformation- is incorporating new knowledge into your psyche and holding it there long enough for it to become a permanent part of your thinking. Remember, Shamanic healings are almost always instantaneous. They treat time differently than we do. The old program must be replaced. That is what Shamans do. That is what instantaneous healing is. Replacing the old program with something new. And you can repeat this process indefinitely. That is evolution.


10. Do you incorporate scenes and beings from your dreams in to your music?

DIVINA:
The music I create/co-create IS a scene of my deeper mind, it IS the landscape of my dreams, and the voices and various instruments are their own beings or characters. Music has always been its own world to me, another dimension, right here, right now. It has always delivered profound messages and told stories and been the most nutritious food for my soul. So my answer is yes, but it is much more than that.

DOUGLAS:
The music is our dreams come to life. There is no separation of the internal world and the external world. Sleep is only necessary if you do not allow your mind to go into deep trance while you are awake. If you access the whole range of brain waves in your daily life, you will eventually have no need for sleep. But you will still dream. And your dreams will come to life as you dream them. That, in one sense, is living in the now.


11. How do you think women's reverence for the sacred differs from men's?

DIVINA:
I don't think that men and women are different in their hearts, they just appear so different because of the way they are programmed through social consciousness.

DOUGLAS:
I don't generalize about "men this" and "women that"- The sacred is beyond gender.

12. Define myth. What myths are critical to your spirit these days?

DIVINA:
To me, a myth is a story that has been told so many times that many, consciously or unconsciously, believe that it is real. I am working on being free of all myths and creating my reality independently of all past and all stories. I like to be inspired by stories, but not confined by them.


DOUGLAS:
Myth is a way to take real events and make them seems as if they never happened, that they are just stories. Is Atlantis a myth? If you study the work of Zecharia Sitchin, you'll hear the idea that the so-called "myths" of Greece and Rome were actually reworkings of the stories of the Sumerians. I'm sure there are plenty of people today who would like to call the writings of the Sumerians "myths". Some may think that the writings of modern newspapers are myths. Whenever there is an agenda by one group of people, the writings or stories of another group will be referred to as myth. I like to keep an open mind about all myths. There may be more truth to them than you think. I recommend reading the complete works of Sitchin as soon as possible. They are a fabulous reflection of the world we live in today.

13. Your posted song, Dream within a Dream, is a hybrid of emotions. Nicely layered. How does it make you feel?

DIVINA:
This gorgeous song cuddles my heart and soul, touches my mind as peaceful and calming waves of an ocean of possibilities and freedom.

DOUGLAS:
Dream Within a Dream immediately lightens me. It's the sound of floating. The trance. A teacher once told me, When you inhale, relax. And when you exhale, relax.

14. How do you select the instruments for each piece?

DIVINA:
We have a vision and then go through our bank to find sounds that match our ideas. Then we collect groups of sounds and create a little sound family for every song.

DOUGLAS:
For the drums, I make many scratch tracks, just loops to see which of them we want to work with. While making & collecting these tracks, I'm able to experiment a lot and try new things. It's all spontaneous at first, then developed further when we decide which ones to work with. I create either what I want to hear, or what I already hear in my head. There are still a lot of things I hear in my head that I'm learning to translate to the palette of the recording studio.

15. Is song writing a right, left, or cosmic brain in your studio?

DIVINA:
I am using both my analytical and intuitive/creative brain halves for my creative processes. And as I said earlier, I am reconnecting with the Void, with the Subconscious, if you want to call it the cosmic brain, to give birth to something new, something progressive and unique that has the ability to impress my mind and hopefully the mind and soul of others. That is what I am after.

DOUGLAS:
Of these choices, definitely cosmic. Beyond beyond. The editing process incorporates basic math, sacred geometry and intuition. There has to be a balance of creative, analytical and cosmic minds to follow through with a project from the original idea to a finished CD. That's why there are so many creative people in the world who never complete anything. They don't have that balance.

16. Please give me your top three contemporary painters.

DIVINA:
1. Kurt Wenner (www.kurtwenner.com)
2. Gerhard Richter (www.gerhard-richter.com)
3. Kelly Urquhart (www.sharpenyourteeth.com)

DOUGLAS:
1. Alex Grey (www.alexgrey.com)
2. Kelly Urquhart (www.KellyUrquhart.com)
3. Random Graffiti Artists (www.graffiti.org)